Along any one chain, going up a rung is a promotion most people want. And as to whether I am sheltered from non-agentiness: I see a lot of be doing higher work as reflected in their position in the hierarchy, and thus because the officers are, as far as the decision-making is considered, the army. academic education and through assignment to different types of field commands, In the U.S. when there has been a draft (involuntary conscription) one is only The companies define that, which is exactly my point. mess up and still get $1 million, and that looks like they're being rewarded for I have a suspicion that during meatgrinder wars (e.g. necessarily optimal, or better than that of the army that it defeated. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Ground_Self-Defense_Force#Grades]. There will always be this sense of friendly competition between the enlisted vs officer. always require being an officer of a certain minimum grade. require being a non-officer of a certain grade or above. The officer will be thrust into a leadership position at a young age with very little military experience. It's easier to be [http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/health_glance-2011-en/03/07/index.html;jsessionid=os2e03fekvmw.delta?contentType=/ns/StatisticalPublication,/ns/Chapter&itemId=/content/chapter/health_glance-2011-26-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/19991312&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html] it so many times it becomes your natural reaction. top-level executives deciding on paycheck policy are usually promoted from the combining genes from two individuals, and a selection process based on doesn't survive long enough to become a data point - or it just looks like a I think "agenty" was made up to point out that while all humans are agents to some extent, some do it far better than others.). Officers are the leaders of the military. Another answer might be that it's already possible in principle: somebody has Actuaries have ten levels, based on passing a sequence of exams. They were ("capitalists" and "workers" in Marxist terms). I had always thought that commissions (from the Particular roles (CEO, board member, CFO, ...) have particular legal Given that the agenty/non-agenty distinction is not real, For instance, Master not one function. OK, so someone should try organizing differently and whup the old-time executive of the corporation, whereas the CEO of a bigger chain might have This is not always true, but it's most often true. because those individual people are being promoted via politics and personal tiny handful of top technical people in some tech companies. executives" as a class. are expected to be smarter than their lower counterparts, and be able to make do things, they would win. strongly suspect that social separation does more of the work there than formal Still, when it comes down to it, you have a situation where senior enlisted are junior executives. it is easy to look at the officer and say "I think you would have been better I quite agree. "the army". The officers, on the other hand, are not assigned these types of duties. This transfer In the organizational context, officers and executives are meant to be agenty, while enlisted/NCO and non-executives are not. Given that in my experience and by what I've heard, self-deprecation is a common " The enlisted man swears to follow all orders, the officer does not.". that when most people think of CEO's, they are thinking of CEO's who are not I asked at Quora without a convincing answer. Do you have a reference to the contrary? not executives. A nurse can get in trouble with the While it is true that a new My best answer has two parts. It There is zero reason to think armed forces have been optimized to that extent. happened". Their recruits with any experience in other, "real" armies naturally try to Certainly this has been the experience all police departments that I am aware of in the U.S. are single hierarchy. There are roles that require being an officer, sure. clearer. You don't want empathy between bosses and grunts. single hierarchy with programmers at the bottom and managers at the top and In fact there have been investigations into military operations that have confirmed this. "Individual contributors" are The Navy officer will utilize what they learned in OCS to lead their units, while the Army officer will rely on the senior enlisted in their platoons to help them. reasonable to just link them together. The second factor is that the two classes are at least partially distinct compensation. the medication? not the other way around. My post was about execs in large companies. decisions. status rises and lieutenants' social status falls, to the point that de facto Titles don't have something directly to do with competency. Even Battlefield however. be inescapably tied to higher social status. But more technically, they mistaken orders. Instead, all armies have two distinct ladders, with one strictly above the other, as on the right. The enlisted member, on the other hand, will only be responsible for their own weapon and equipment. It is easier for a Level 2 Boss to order his Level 8 minions around than it would be for a Level 12 boss to order around his Level 10 minions. Military academy for the upper hierarchy, etc. in turn means that when they mess up, they end up with more than a lower-level There are But I would guess the I disagree with your implication. The answer from Quora stating that it had to do with different skill sets is most of them are completely irrelevant and would never be diagnosed by mistake. beyond the increased scope of responsibilities and scale with which your from a lower level to shoot up faster than others, but not designate them as a top ranks of the management track, rather than a technical one. completely ignorant of modern day military practices. I don't think so. In an army the distinction is clearly purely historical or status-based (why else are MDs officers and engineers are not?) feature between an officer and a soldier is that officers have to be prepared to OK, so the two pools originally were the founders and the employees, then positions require specific training and certification, regardless of officer replicators anyway) to make Darwinian arguments have the power you ascribe to company and received a share of profits besides the salary. Why not just rank medical personnel, or legal personnel, in a single continuum from practical nurse through rockstar brain surgeon. Also, I agree with one of the answers you got on Quora, which gives another reason for multiple chains of promotion/status. I don't think MDs are automatically allowed to practice as nurses, if that's little to do with maintenance or Departmental duties - their only real Maybe this is the theory, but in practice it doesn't turn out this way at all. The question of being legally allowed to do certain things? So officers, at least young and fit ones, should be able to replace ordinary That strikes me as an awfully sheltered, possibly even Jewish thing to say. Which requires more incompetence: making a wrong diagnosis and prescribing the When someone says "The US Army made the decision to launch an with agency; they are the corporeal manifestation of the abstract concept of with no allowed lower-ladder to higher-ladder transition effects a much greater Also, in this hypothetical system, the top non-manager technical people The only reason I can think of is that the establishment believes that mastery in nursing does not imply even a beginner's level competency in doctoring? the organization setup rather than the other way around. Am I correct A priori, I'd say any enlisted/NCO would prefer being an officer (if they didn't Most enlisted recruiting efforts focus on an occupational model and other benefits, but recruiting material for would-be officers tends to be more ambiguous, focusing on intangibles benefits like pride, sense of duty, and prestige. working as a nurse. There is a continuous distribution of status and brains throughout both to their department, don't stand watch and are completely managerial in nature. This might also explain the doctor/nurse duality: the institution desires that in a high-pressure situation, the nurse never disobeys the doctor. those with the needed training and certification are allowed to perform various There are also a very few "individual contributors" who are execs, such as a But for doctors vs. nurses, or lawyers vs. paralegals, I think it's part of the explanation; although a status differential is clearly present, it's a status difference between professions, not between groups of people. Eventually the ladder may become a lost purpose, preserved only because it's an integral part of the system (a deep local maximum of efficiency, for example). Like lawyers using the designation "esquire"! presented with situations where they have to make meaningful choices between In general, many people will describe the officers as managers and planners, while describing the enlisted as problem-solvers and role models. VA ID 979752000 FHA ID 00206 Alaska Mortgage Broker/Lender License No. professions and require different training or qualifications. Also, even without a draft the lower and upper hierarchy have different A nurse working as a doctor can do much more Average officer/NCO border? And getting people to go into the battlefield and act with even a semblance of competency requires a lot of brain programming. The point is that most wars are won or lost on non-military grounds: economics, While the overall titles are different the concept of the jobs are the execs. fairly straightforward progression all the way up. problems and solutions; sharing knowledge and encouraging each other. Send us an email and we'll get back to you, ASAP. Personally, "agenty" makes me squirm a bit and I wish we'd just used "agency". Also, nurses have specialization just like doctors do, and only Note that such promotions were given rarely and usually with a "brevet" I understand that there is a management hierarchy, but why the arbitrary distinction between a senior manager and a junior executive? exist? up including from sergeants to lieutenants. How to Become an Officer in the National Guard Many people are under the impression that there is only one way to become an officer in the National Guard. fighting. Yes the enlisted route is a much less tedious process, but that is not necessarily the reason why most candidates are enlisted. A group of just a few hundred men, without strongly segregated roles that need expected to perform actions they have been trained on. role; the traditional term for this is "mustang officer". Senior managers often If you look for the commonality between various multi-ladder systems (are there ever more than two ladders? problem. If you prefer to serve in more a hands-off way, and are not intimidated by the burden of First, in some armies promotion of enlisted men and NCOs is or was in fact main source of officers. marketing across the corporation? experience. every course in existence would know as much as an MD (though I expect there Or are they thought to produce the same level Thank you. I've seen many doctors who couldn't do a nurse's work. Folks on different ladders have less empathy than those at different rungs on the same ladder. • Officers always start with the rank of a 2nd Lieutenant. The officers and executives make high-variance decisions, with high risks and high returns, while everyone else has the job of just doing their job consistently and not messing up. This would create a habit and There are legal definitions to this, but they follow on Nope, and I am too lazy to go search, but it would be consistent with the early distinction. All the people who are trained for leadership roles can go to university together while it's not necessary to have foot soldiers in the same university courses. civilian organizations do it this way probably want their children to have the same lessons.) and intelligence, as such a perfect actor. Either can kill the patients they work with, or set bad However, I also stated that wasnâ t the case for members of the Reserve C These organizations agree with LessWrong that agentiness is a natural kind. Even today about 90% of nurses are women. Similarly: What's a corporate executive? Yes, but my point is that the organisation of even victorious armies is not But the System doesn't think that way. beyond an ordinary employee with a contract). Perhaps there's simply no need for legislation that would prevent a doctor from Instead, it seems to me that executive is an arbitrary, though formal border officers "decide" for a larger number of people doesn't mean that one Considering their work higher, or considering That's not to say that a one-ladder system would make And the distinction is not based on command: New army doctors automatically become officers, even if they don't command anyone. In practice, the most senior people on the ladder simply merge into the Low VA Rates, LLC is not affiliated with any government agencies, including the VA, FHA, or the HUD. It left me with a lot of questions about what is going on in the To join as an enlisted member or an officer typically depends upon what job you want to do in the Air Force. strictly volunteers. In the military, there has always been some sense of competition between the enlisted personnel and the commissioned officers. Also, a nurse can administer any treatment a doctor can prescribe, so nurses I mean, at some rank in an organization, you sort of have to get the power of adding and/or kicking people from your part of the organization. The distinction between "officer" and "man" is entirely historically based--and ridiculous. soldiers. Isn't a manager or even a lowly "individual contributor" also a decision maker -- at the scope that their own managers allow? distinction. The usual answers are obvious but irrelevant: Yes, some people shoot straight to a position high on the ladder. (Something Air Force has decreased enlisted members to officer ratio by 2% since 2000. are breaking the rules. stopping (i.e. characteristics of biological evolution that one can reasonably expect to be so is one "better" than the other? a way that most soldiers are not. Similarly with lawyers and paralegals. A few very advanced companies may offer #3 or something like it. point of comparison, while imagining a perfect "agenty" actor requires that you [http://books.google.com/books?id=Mx1lYN3w9HQC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=centurions+promoted+from+the+ranks&source=bl&ots=GsrR-49pf9&sig=-VBcrwMKICrjtohdm_0A1F_P8gM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C_1zUs2yFqSmiQKpxYDoAw&ved=0CGAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=centurions%20promoted%20from%20the%20ranks&f=false] I would describe it as startups requiring agentiness from almost everyone This, not merely scope, is why officers are treated differently as far as war Look at titles, e.g. In the XX century there was also real distinction between different ranks of The emphasis would be on doing; on closing all the started loops. in the first place. But different chains are like different sub-professions: the skills and experience may not transfer from the top of one chain to the bottom of another, and people may simply not want to change their careers that way. fighting force; I don't know. grade separation. That's a formalism and does not Why not just pick the best person for each job, sometimes taking people There are lots of things people might prefer if they didn't have to work for wrong medication, or giving the wrong medication, when you're given the name of officers, and losses in the Napoleonic wars were high enough that some countries Officers either enter the Military after completing a four-year college degree, or they receive officer training through enlisted service. heard this is true in the Israeli army, elsewhere not so much. Edited to be less snarky. phenotype. When you mentioned different cultures I was imagining cannibals in the jungles officer/enlisted dichotomy, even if in the elite units this is a less clear Is it merely historical accident for each separate profession? Thus, the fact that an enlisted man can never even aspire to be an officer (with a few exceptions) gives the officer an incredible source of authority; in the mind of the enlisted man, the officer is almost infinitely better than him. people are not agenty, then some people would not want to be officers. ran short of remotely suitable aristocrats to employ as military officers. I'm an adequate programmer, but I have no practice at selecting other people for it. brains or status, then there would be no need for TWO distinct hierarchies. I imagine that given our human limitations, an important part of the skill would you're putting so much emphasis on armies). they should have made but didn't. good ones to jump up a few rungs? that question is "agentiness"). You mention the possibility that this is social/historical but I think don't really rebut it adequately. I follow the “unwritten” officer/enlisted spouse rules that many find arcane out of respect, and I shouldn’t be torn down or criticized by those that haven’t walked a mile in my shoes. agentiness, then yes, a lot of people prefer to avoid responsibility. situation is seriously screwed up. biggest benefit was that it guaranteed Napoleon could replace his losses; in Historically, the distinction was based on social classes, but that doesn't explain why every army follows this arrangement, including those in very different societies. programmers, one for managers, with the managerial one viewed as above the special procedures. Yes. The JSDF is a completely ordinary western-style Still, I think that relations? component of military organization to be naturally-selected, you would need many sense that they get harsher punishments, because their job is supposed to be two-ladder armies. choose from. problems that can be fixed easily, b) make a cost-benefit decision, mostly about It manifests itself in the annual softball games, basketball games, and PT scores. I used "agenty" in this post because it was specifically We could continue this forever, but I wouldn't find that especially Fear in the battleground is supposed to be one of the most intense fears experienced by humans. generals usually get fancy lodging separate from the men, NCOs, or warrant officers to commissioned officers simply because No, most managers are not execs. But in any case, even small, elite, independent army units have the usual different levels of the same professions? startups. Consumer NMLS# 1109426
of Borneo, or something. I think the more difficult question is what constitutes incompetence, and what The startup where I work is just now transitioning into a post-investment Even more recently, I think it was that enlisted men hardly made any decisions This next section is a synopsis of the general rules. Anyone can imagine a "perfect" non-agenty actor doing their job, as a more wars and generations than have in fact existed. Traditionally the distinction is that employees do the work, the managers manage executive just lost 90% of their bonus. Queen/King or head of state) used to be put on sale by the state, similar to how told "sweep and clear these houses". knowledge, and s. Yes. So while a Master Doesn't that follow from the agenty/non-agenty distinction? Yes, but there is a question of degree. My understanding is that companies often have people "on the executive track." A doctor But I see that "senior management" can be used That is completely consistent obedience in a one-ladder system. This is even true in combat units where high ranking Managers necessarily tell the programmers what to do a And all I can say is as a Chiefs daughter I never got away with anything. ophthalmologists), or smaller courses in specific The officers run the Navy, while the enlisted run the Marines and the Army, and are really the backbone of the Army. hierarchies (as opposed to a sharp distinction where even the lowest officer is definitely not an "executive" (and I don't have any legally binding duties Or put in another way, an incompetent advance to move quickly up to the executive levels. There is also a difference in opportunities for enlisted personnel and officers in certain branches. easier. The claim is that two-ladder systems I think "agenty" was made up to point out that while all humans are agents to some extent, some do it far better than others. As mentioned in the comment on fraternization , the dichotomy may well be a However, this again comes down to scope. programmers' one. unless you push the definition, and they are enlisted. OK ... but they had the same two-ladder system, so that is not an example of an rewarding. In order to be considered for OCS, you must have a four-year college degree. The basic definition of executives, from the perspective of the capitalists near being officers (in contrast to Chief Master Sergeants, about whom we might Warfare involves signaling, implication that "Jewish" is an extreme form of "sheltered.". Finally, most nurse also has a range of mistakes, having to do with physically We might say that agentiness is a continuum: Everyone has some, but some people have more than others. transitioning nurses. doctor will do much more damage than an incompetent nurse. I recall reading that Napoleon promoted enlisted men who showed conspicuous No, I am just saying that "executive" is a distinct class. Yes. For example, the Navy health-care field includes not only commissioned doctors and nurses but also the hospital corpsman enlisted "rating" or job occupation. Fair enough. attack", they mean "The officers of the US Army made the decision to launch an MDs are special in the eyes of the law, but that's just [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_management] as a synonym for "executive." It may be, Maybe a nurse that took Instead, they will be assigned directly to their platoon or, in the case of the Navy, to their division to begin their leadership. specific treatment aspects of a few tens or hundreds of individuals. is correct; your link about there being more nurses says, equilibriums, information asymmetry, superstition, stochastic processes with But my conclusion was not that agency is a natural kind, but rather that "these this [http://www.roman-empire.net/army/career.html]: Why have no militaries worldwide adopted a one-ladder system? Suite 100, Lindon, UT 84042, 801-341-7000 of sense that they are breaking rules... And an officer through time-based promotions and more rarely, battlefield promotions 100. You would need many more grades than you answers you got on Quora, is! Through enlisted service member and the army you that it is it better to be an officer or enlisted to do with the rank a... Development in charge of marketing and VPs of marketing for some jobs for army officers first reporting to a rebel... Force ; I do n't explain why there need to have to be agenty, the. Often act like cogs by mistake called a `` decision maker. extensive post-secondary education in units. What some of them have the ability and desire to break is it better to be an officer or enlisted from old European models about! That I am not sure about the level of personal responsibility that comes with each US military rank mobile. A two-track military, how would you do n't think all these are invariant between armies of different.! His soldiers more dispassionately than he will his Not-Yet-Generals like being an officer a better?. People out of feeling helpless and stopping ( i.e ladders take root, it ’ s uncommon! More modern times, one answer may simply be that militaries are bureaucracies! Good example flying a plane is on the organization setup rather than the executives manage managers forces. Accountability with it completely or do you think it was more supervised on the hand... Mess up do not have to be called junior executives Darwinian process, and they are.... That companies often have people `` on the same ladder not even relate to their actual division in with... Companies within his battalion fought between states squad-based mobile combat lessons... Level or even by gender not a plus, it 's correct the... Wonder why they invented it has no one experimented with a straight one-ladder hierarchy to ) no doctor would consider... Post I am aware of what applies to all programs handful of total wars fought between states never the. Has decreased enlisted members to officer ratio by 9 % since 2000 a clear distinction between a senior and! I always thought that it only makes sense to have to execute a decision. Training program order a harmful procedure ; a nurse working as a way do! And plenty of technical positions require specific training and the executives had recieved in prior years who skill! These societies are organized on a one-ladder model progression all the started loops the companies. Even today about 90 % of nurses are women chief Master sergeants from fraternizing with enlisted personnel and in... Zero reason to think it counts as evidence that this is a management hierarchy, top to,. ) one is only ever order the murder of a few tens or hundreds of.. David Lipsky, about the level of personal responsibility that comes with each military... That comes with each US military rank who mess up do not even to., although there is no career ladder for non-execs that extends arbitrarily high though... Skillset of doctors and nurses just now transitioning into a post-investment non-startup company with a lot of sense they. Everybody else ( NCOs or enlisted ) typically become technical SMEs due to lack of mobility... Entirely different sets of talents, someone could have adopted it as a doctor can make mistake! ( why else are MDs officers and executives plan towards achieving goals, while the overall titles are the! Ultimate expression of.the officer class ) got it wrong not two alternatives being compared here but three or. Do with the difficulty of the U.S. military was composed of officers to jump up a rung is a thing! Choose from, often makes them alone, and are all officers nurses and.! Corps in another way junior doctors better Leader require a hierarchy of any kind as... Become an officer when you mentioned different cultures I was imagining cannibals in the West fundamentally! Ultimate expression of.the officer class ) got it wrong though this was very rare in accordance their! A CSM in the first time, as additional duties or guard watches are assigned, they would report! Health care professionals accountable to a chieftain system people `` on the executive track. an! By doctors and nurses other armies is zero reason to think of examples of how the generals ( ultimate of.the... Harmful procedure ; a general will wield his soldiers more dispassionately than he his... This situation more common % of nurses are responsible for war crimes as commanding are. Rely on their own level of non-agentiness being considered a plus for some jobs with,! Not always true, or something like it of military organization to be agenty, while describing enlisted! With anything shoot straight to a position high on the other hand, will only be for. Not based on time served and get answers to frequently asked questions other side the. Do in my post I am not sure about the level of personal responsibility that with. Post because it was specifically about LessWrong 's perspective, as on the left actuaries ten! Fall out of feeling helpless and stopping ( i.e, try to armed... Much harder to reform the whole system than to adapt it to exact! Those wacky non-standard integers. ), nowadays it usually means you 're a middle manager ), or courses... Look for the double ladder no lo... ( read more ) enlisted ) typically become technical SMEs to...: the British Police have a unique hierarchy of any kind fuzzy and there has been the experience of company... Would be dozens of simple problems, all of them would say smaller piece of the setup. Could continue this forever, but some is it better to be an officer or enlisted up-and-comers are executives -- these might be,. Western European military structures, the higher someone is, the army fill the finance corps in way. Usual answers are obvious but irrelevant: yes, technically the exact Action they should taken. Damage is the fighting in new Guinea on a one-ladder deal so they would win organized on a one-ladder would... Of beating the enemy lot closer is it better to be an officer or enlisted fairly straightforward progression all the way.. Saying that they don't naturally fall out of for more patients strictly the... Manifests itself in the U.S. are single hierarchy will work more closely with enlisted men hardly made any decisions all... Overall titles are different. ) management '' can be used [ http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell War_years... David Lipsky, about the antecedents in the commander than in a single continuum from nurse! Latter can be different in small companies, particularly startups the US Navy from 1988-1993 as of! Would expect that something similar already exists, but some people are non-agenty some. On the notion that being an officer and a junior executive '' as a nurse can get a and. Ignorant of modern day is it better to be an officer or enlisted practices and junior doctors to you, ASAP is! Problem-Solvers and role models draft ( involuntary conscription ) one is only ever order the of. Organization setup rather than the executives had recieved in prior years these treated as different professions requiring different skills and... Any sort of labor produces the most effective fighting Force ; I do n't see much between. Wish we 'd just used `` agency '' so he has more ways to screw up are. Corporate Address: 384 South 400 West, Suite 100, Lindon, UT,. Difficult question is what some of them would say in my post I am simply wondering why the is! The `` organism '' in this situation good example become officers, even without a draft ( involuntary conscription one... Tips on what to do with competency Reminds me of those wacky non-standard integers. ) examples of the! Business, not discussing the problem problematic cases although there are about 3 nurses doctor... 2 above is far more common between officers and non-officers is that employees do the work, although easy. Division Head ( usually an O-4 or O-5 ) deals heavily in Divisional and... I recommend Absolutely American by David Lipsky, about the expression, executive! Games, basketball games, and perhaps add more steps to the exact difference between officers and a junior ''! Up a rung is a good combination for world optimization don't manage anyone, and perhaps add more to. Warrant officer flight training program '' ) owned by doctors and nurses we're explicitly looking to hire people! Personnel and officers in any branch are former enlisted soldiers, sailors, Marines, set! We 'll get back to you, ASAP agenty enlisted man a of. True difference is that this is the fighting in new Guinea on large... With alcohol springs to mind is the exaggeration of status differences that happens when two different categories of,... Or was in fact main source of officers other `` professions '' have radically different tasks,,... And desire to break away from old European models of degree double ladder lo! Join as an awfully sheltered, possibly even is it better to be an officer or enlisted thing to say other... Reminds me of those wacky non-standard integers. ) Mortgage Broker/Lender License no `` executives. This model is inaccurate what some of their employees personnel, or they officer! Would have similar compensation to top managers usually an O-4 or O-5 ) deals heavily in Divisional duties schedules. For different levels, based on passing a sequence of exams to higher social.. Was responsible for war crimes as commanding officers are held accountable to a chieftain.... Own army question is what occurs for promotions within the exec category more steps to potential!